Debate thread

Think of any topic you'd like to debate (Im looking for some intelligent conversion here, so humor me) choose your side and Il take the side of the opposition .
Your side on the debate does not necessarily have to reflect your feelings on that matter.
Keep it serious , use real facts (post sources if you can) and above all , keep it civil.
I don't want any name calling or slurs. Theres too much of that crap in the real world already and I see no need to bring it to here too.

Thread restarted.

Possible topics (these are just general ideas , any other topics are perfectly fine too )

War on Terror
American influence in world politics (good / bad)
The effects of anonymity on society
Abortion
The idea of a Modern Education
Global Warming
China's Rise to Power
North Korea
Global Terrorism
Drug use in the U.S.
Pacifism



Just something to give you some ideas.

War on Terror! Why are we there?

Sold.
Id like to start the Debate on The War on Terror by presenting the facts leading up to the invasion of Iraq
(for use of both sides of the debate and to put the invasion of Iraq into perpective)
Il post these sometime tonight.

Il try and find some kind of timeline....if you find one post it!

Ive decided to give up on the time line (couldn't find a good one that wasn't 5 pages long)
Alright then.
The opening salvo is yours.

ok, let's just keep it basic to start: try to find a single official announcement from the Bush Administration that openly states in a way the common American could understand why we are there. GO!

WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION THAT DON'T EXIST AND FUCKING OIL!

Not trolling, personal opinion.

Thats all well and good Capn', but...
This isnt about personal opinions.
This is about an organized debate about relevant topics in our world.
This is about viewing the facts objectively and creating a viable argument to support either side for the sake of debate , regardless of what your real opinions are.
This is about seeing a side other than your own in an attempt to better understand the reasons behind the actions.
And who knows , we even might learn something while were here .

I was serious, try to find an offical adress or sanctioned article saying why we're there.

Il get to it. (its also nice to see you actually want to get this started too)

This is the best I could do.
It was damn near impossible to find anything that wasnt slanted to either side ,
and this was as close to the middle as I could get.


http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/236jmcbd.asp

In short it describes the Clinton era's effect on the choice to go to war and the threat of chemical weapons.
If you can find more info that you could contribute then post it.

I'm not talking about Clinton, I'm talking about Bush Jr. Anything from him?

This is the best I could find (3rd time btw)

Best Answer - Chosen by Voters
Afghanistan: On September 11 international terrorist organization Al Qaeda hijacked and crashed four of our planes. In response we sent Special Forces,CIA operatives to back allied fighters to topple the Taliban government in Afghanistan that kept the terrorist organizations safe. The Afghan people were already starving and struggling to survive under the Taliban,living conditions improved significantly in the cities,such as Kabul and Kandahar after we invaded. Our goal now is to win over the rural population so they will back our efforts and support the Afghan government. We are currently there to help the newly established Afghan government eliminate the remaining insurgent fighters who are taking refuge in the mountainous region of the Afghan-Pakistan border. Al Qaeda's base of operations is in that area and we frequently bomb their targets with unmanned aircraft. The Taliban currently funds itself through the drug trade and maintains a presence in rural Afghanistan and receives a lot of support from the Pakistani Taliban in the border region. Until recently,Pakistan has not cooperated in helping us eliminate those insurgents. Since the Afghan government can easily be toppled by the Taliban after we leave,we are there to insure that does not happen so terrorists cannot plan attacks there. We are also targeting terrorist operatives by helping nations like Yemen and the Philippines who already have stable governments but just need some extra help.


Iraq: Our president and our politicians believed there were nuclear,chemical and biological weapons that can kill hundreds of thousands in Iraq. So we invaded. It was based on faulty evidence,lack of proper judgment and failure to understand the Iraqi people. Once the government disappeared and we placed a new one,sectarian violence and civil war conditions emerged. Different religious factions such as Shiites and Sunnis began killing each other and our troops. International terrorist organizations began to emerge in Iraq,which is the exact opposite of what we wanted.We took the help of local tribes and initiated a troop surge to crush the insurgents and now,Iraq is relatively stable but our troops are still there to insure the government is capable of protecting its own country from the insurgents and terrorist operatives.Once they are confident the Iraqi Military can handle the rest,we leave by August. Basically, we invaded for a stupid reason,but continue to stay for a good reason. We took responsibility for our actions.

Its from yahoo.com but it stays with the facts and its the most honest account Ive seen yet.

Here is the link http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100218204623AA1qIY9


Also , if you really want a "good" account maybe you could start trying to find one.

But here, have some more:

http://eyeraki.blogspot.com/2009/06/given-magnitude-of-threat-current.html


http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0913-03.htm

That all for now, and im done.

Okay, so I'll hit 'em one at a time like you did.

Afghanistan: Sounds liek delicious revenge. That's not a reason for a nation we believe is "good" to invade. Sure we're there doing "good" now, but we shouldn't have gone in the first place. It still isn't US business to help out their nation unless we were asked to be there.

Iraq: Look into the first sentence, I'll paraphrase to show you what I'm talking about: " Our president and our politicians believed there were weapons [intended to] kill thousands in Iraq." Why would the Iraqi government want to destroy its own people, not to mention put their lives personally in danger? It's an odd assumption even if there were weapons. Also, even if they did have weapons, the only reason we would have reasonable grounds to go there would have been based on laws for nuclear weaponry instated during the Cold War. If they had threatened us (Cold War laws), we would have grounds to invade. However, as far as my knowledge, no such threats were ever made. To assume that the bombings were "threats" would be a pretty long shot and would not justify Iraq, only Afghanistan. Oh, or if they asked for help, which would go back to the Clinton administration and Desert Storm, not the Bush administration.

Just FYI : The Yahoo Answer (the really long text) is not mine. I didnt claim it to be in the text , and I meant it to be used for information purposes.
(Sorry for any possible confusion, as I now understand that pasting the info (versus giving a link) can be confusing.)
Il be posting my rebuttle later tonight.

I know they aren't yours, it's jsut I'm using "You" as a general opposing argument.

That's great.
Its just that the whole "you" thing confused me for a moment.
But no matter.
Il also use the same format.

Afghanistan: Many Military leaders believe that we should have invaded Afghanistan instead of Iraq , as this was (contrary to popular belief at the time) where the Taliban was truly based. Afghanistan is also the main source of the poppy seeds that fund the Taliban's operations worldwide. Due to the mountainous terrain that covers much of Afghanistan it is the perfect hiding spot for the guerrilla fighters of the Taliban, and is currently where the majority of the U.S. military might is deployed to assault the Taliban on the home turf.

Iraq: One of the reasons we invaded Iraq was to depose its ruthless dictator Saddam Hussein. Saddam Hussein was a militaristic dictator who had previously used chemical weapons against the Kurdish people in his al-Anfal campaign (hence the fear of him being in possession of and using WMDs) . Saddam used these weapons against his own people , the Kurds in Northeastern Iraq during one of his ethnic cleansing campaigns. During this campaign 182,000 people--men, women, and children were killed. One notable attack during this campaign was the Halabja poison gas massacre of 1988, in which over 5,000 people were killed. The manner in which this slaughter was carried out is hauntingly similar to that of the Holocaust. We liberated Iraq because of the horrible atrocities Saddam had committed against his own people, who have lived under his oppressive rule for years. The sound of peaceful protesters being shot to death in the streets was just an aspect of everyday life for them under Saddam's rule. Saddam was famous for his brutal dictatorship worldwide , and in 2003 the U.S. Invaded Iraq to finish what they had started in 1991 :The end of Saddam Husein's reign of terror\ in Iraq.

Afghanistan: There's still no official legal reason there though. If they were using poppies to make drugs, sure, that's there issue, not ours. Also, Popular opinion, while great for a true democratic method on domestic issues, is probably not best on international affairs, like choosing who to invade. "popular opinion" doesn't exactly dictate that.

Iraq: Hussein may have been willing to use dangerous weapons (I'm trying to avoid WMDs, nukes, words like that) against his people, but I stick to my main point against Iraq, Afghanistan, and Vietnam: Not US business. Unless they called for us saying "Help me America, you're my only hope" I see no rational reason. If genocide is a reason for the US to go in and generally I think it should be, where were we in Rwanda and why aren't we in Darfur?

Afghanistan: The poppie trade is what funds the Taliban's operations. These drugs are distributed around the world and sold for the Talibans profit , and the U.S. pays the bill in blood. My point is that Afghanistan (not Iraq, as the was belied at the time) is the base of operations for the Taliban.

Iraq : We actually are in Darfur (under a U.N. peacekeeping mission , of which the U.S. is part of ) . In fact when the U.S. held the presidency over the U.N. council for one month in 2006 one of the first drafts it put forward was to send peacekeepers to Darfur. That aside , who do you expect to call for help? The government leaders ? Those who were personally placed in positions of power by Saddam himself? It can be quite hard to cry for help with the threat of death hanging over your head.

Afghanistan: So how does that preclude us going there?

Iraq: ok, point taken, but still, sounds to me like that's under UN, not a choice made by the US or a call from Sudan. And in Iraq itself, I still see no reason why the US had to take other nation's matters into our own hands.

Just out of curiosity, what is your personal opinion, St2udent? It's just cuz it seems like you're only stating facts and you seem somewhat detached like you don't agree with them...

Hmmm... personally?

I believe that the Invasion of Iraq was justified , but for the wrong reasons. We went in there under false pretenses , searching for weapons we weren't sure really even existed. The government took advantage of an angry and confused populace and forced their hatred at someone who had nothing to do with their pain.The reason I think they were able to go through with it all is that any opposition to the invasion would've been seen as "unpatriotic" and would have shown up as a bad memory once the time for reelections rolls around
Hell most of the evidence points to Saudi Arabia being behind 911 , (15 out of 19 of the hijackers were Saudis, Osama Bin Laden is a also Saudi Arabian. He is also a member of the Saudi Arabian Royal Family) . This combined with the fact that once the U.S. invaded , oil prices would fall (Iraq wouldn't produce oil for a bit , war kinda does that to nations), giving the Royal Saudi family the opportunity to buy up the wells on the cheap, then reopen them and make a huge profit when oil prices were high (I will admit that this is quite a stretch, and Im probably giving them a little too much credit).

However, I will say this: Saddam Husein didn't exactly dismiss questions of having the weapons we were searching for , and intel (at the time) made it seem like he was trying to acquire or manufacture some.He also had the means (launchers and so on) and the will to use them (as he has done before).

I also believe that our current presence in Afghanistan is justified ( local government is asking for our help , we get to root out threats in the area). But Id like to see it turned into a police action instead of a military action. The Army is taking way too much responsibility in something that (considering its been about ..... seven years?) hasn't been transferred to the now at least moderately well trained local Army and police forces. Our original reason for going in was to search for Osama Bin Laden (havent heard that name in a while ). Along the way we discovered that that's where the Taliban was based. Been there ever since.

But as I said before : I offered to take the opposing side to and (well....almost any) debate , weather it was in line with my ideals or not.
You offered me a challenge and I accepted. Simple as that.

Yeah, I get that it's just an opposing viewpoint and I repect that you were able to uphold it so well. Fifteen Points for Gryffindor! Anyhoo, I'm pretty much out of steam for this one and I think we've reached a point of agreement, at least on a personal level. It's good that we're there now, we may have somewhat overstepped our bounds, but we're doing good for other nations. Sound good?

Sounds good , man.
A WINRAR is You!

LOL
Debate thread.

So thanks for coming to what was surprisingly an educational discussion (Im not really sure It was a debate , but I had fun with it so I dont really care).
Hope you enjoyed it!

Till next time
St2udent, Out.